[CAMWEST-discuss] Fw: Re: [Fwd: Re: BNSW - further information]

Nick Urbanik nicku at nicku.org
Sat Jul 12 19:11:46 UTC 2008

Dear CAMWESTies,

Some fighting words from Ken Hall about the direction of BNSW.

Please also read the mail from Leigh Gibbens below.

BNSW have their annual general meeting this Wednesday evening.  It is
probably worth attending to express your view in the voting.

----- Forwarded message from Ken Hall <kenhall at iprimus.com.au> -----

From: Ken Hall <kenhall at iprimus.com.au>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:36:31 +1000
To: Leigh Gibbens <lgibbens at bigpond.net.au>
Cc: "ashbug at telstra.com" <"mailto:ashbug"@telstra.com>,
	"MBooth at chcs.com.au" <"mailto:MBooth"@chcs.com.au>,
	sally at bargo.info, "mailto:sally"@bargo.info, contact at baybug.org.au,
	"mailto:contact"@baybug.org.au, mwortho at bigpond.net.au,
	"mailto:mwortho"@bigpond.net.au, info at bikenorth.org.au,
	"mailto:info"@bikenorth.org.au, cctcc at optusnet.com.au,
	"mailto:cctcc"@optusnet.com.au, bgrinberg at telstra.com,
	"mailto:bgrinberg"@telstra.com, b.day at UNSWalumni.com,
	"mailto:b.day"@UNSWalumni.com, contact at bikesouthwest.org.au,
	"mailto:contact"@bikesouthwest.org.au, cityride at bikesydney.org,
	"mailto:cityride"@bikesydney.org, markr at australwright.com.au,
	"mailto:markr"@australwright.com.au, info at burstbug.org.au,
	"mailto:info"@burstbug.org.au, president at bww.org.au,
	"mailto:president"@bww.org.au, maxsfitzroy at bigpond.com,
	"mailto:maxsfitzroy"@bigpond.com, info at camwest.pps.com.au,
	"mailto:info"@camwest.pps.com.au, debbiebarrett at bigpond.com,
	"mailto:debbiebarrett"@bigpond.com, katandra at bigpond.com,
	"mailto:katandra"@bigpond.com, "mailto:yargnhoj"@aapt.net.au,
	John-J-OBrien at bigpond.com, "mailto:John-J-OBrien"@bigpond.com,
	george1h at bigpond.com, "mailto:george1h"@bigpond.com,
	guybrantingham at southernphone.com.au,
	"president at sydneyspokes.com" <"mailto:president"@sydneyspokes.com>,
	"elanora at winsoft.net.au" <"mailto:elanora"@winsoft.net.au>,
	"CBushell at csu.edu.au" <"mailto:CBushell"@csu.edu.au>,
	"jmoxham at pacbrands.com.au" <"mailto:jmoxham"@pacbrands.com.au>,
	lmpatterson at gundagai.nsw.gov.au,
	"mailto:lmpatterson"@gundagai.nsw.gov.au, timothy at australia.edu,
	"mailto:timothy"@australia.edu, dbathers at bigpond.net.au,
	"mailto:dbathers"@bigpond.net.au, wernersteyer at yahoo.com.au,
	"mailto:wernersteyer"@yahoo.com.au, fractalbug at yahoo.com.au,
	"mailto:fractalbug"@yahoo.com.au, david.and.barb at iinet.net.au,
	"mailto:david.and.barb"@iinet.net.au, mastacy at aims1.every1.net,
	Ken Hall <kenhall at iprimus.com.au>, "mailto:kenhall"@iprimus.com.au,
	"mailto:jthixton"@hotmail.com, massbug at massbug.org.au,
	"mailto:massbug"@massbug.org.au, cpursche at scu.edu.au,
	"mailto:cpursche"@scu.edu.au, "mailto:scribepj"@tpg.com.au,
	haworth at tsn.cc, "mailto:haworth"@tsn.cc, alland1 at bigpond.com,
	"mailto:alland1"@bigpond.com, wadmitch at adventureteam.zzn.com,
	"mailto:wadmitch"@adventureteam.zzn.com, pjaje at bigpond.com,
	"mailto:pjaje"@bigpond.com, graham.andrews at bigpond.com,
	NCM <cycleways at hunterlink.net.au>, nebug at optusnet.com.au,
	"mailto:nebug"@optusnet.com.au, gregw at nor.com.au,
	"mailto:gregw"@nor.com.au, info at westernsydneycyclingnetwork.com.au,
	"mailto:north_shore_bike"@yahoo.com.au, ggodde at vtown.com.au,
	"mailto:cycleways"@hunterlink.net.au, "mailto:ggodde"@vtown.com.au,
	laja.florence at bigpond.com, "mailto:laja.florence"@bigpond.com,
	begabug_7 at hotmail.com, "mailto:begabug_7"@hotmail.com,
	info at stgeorgebug.org.au, "mailto:info"@stgeorgebug.org.au,
	sharkbike at sharkbike.org.au, "mailto:sharkbike"@sharkbike.org.au,
	gjsearle at bigpond.com, "mailto:gjsearle"@bigpond.com,
	enquiry at toukleycycleclub.org.au,
	"info at windsorcyclists.org.au" <"mailto:info"@windsorcyclists.org.au>,
	"johnsuth at acenet.com.au" <"mailto:johnsuth"@acenet.com.au>,
	"mailto:info"@westernsydneycyclingnetwork.com.au, judd at tpg.com.au,
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: BNSW - further information]
X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000

Hi Folks
I have just received an email from Andrew Dodds re Bug Council next Wednesday

It is my intention to be there. I thought I would inform everyone of
MacBUG's issues prior to the day but request that Andrew Dodds read
this out if I cannot make it.

Leigh Gibbens and I decided to establish a data collection project a
couple of weeks ago based mainly on our frustration at the lack of
support from Bicycle NSW.  MacBUG has never received any support from
Bicycle NSW in including dealing with local advocacy issues, hostile
councils. Our communications has rarely received a response.

What we are discussing is client - customer relations. 

Bicycle NSW is a BUG client and we support them in a variety of
ways. With fees, volunteers etc but we get next to nothing in return.

The BUG's are Bicycle NSW clients, we get nothing in the way of
services at the grass roots level which is where the focus should be,
BUIG's appear to be totally ignored.  Even the BUG Council topics are
controlled by Andrew. I have an email stating what subjects we could
discuss at the next BUG Council written only a few weeks ago.

Six years ago I started a Campbelltown Bushwalking Club called the
Mountain Devils. The fees were $25 and the insurance element $15, six
years later the fees are $30 and the insurance element $15.

I joiner Pedal Power yesterday. The membership is $100 per family or
$60 per individual and valid throughout Australia.  Same coverage for
what we receive from Bicycle NSW.  With Bicycle NSW my family fees are
$120, where does it go? Bicycle NSW claims 10,000 members therefore
have a lot of clout when negotiating with insurance companies. They
don't seem to be doing very well.

Elizabeth Holt visited Dr Andrew Macdonald Labour MP for Glenfield
(part of Macarthur) obviously to discuss cycling issues. To this day I
have no idea what was discussed. I do know that when I broached the
subject with her she wasn't happy and quite aggressive but later

It was reported from a reliable source that members of Bicycle NSW
have said in the past that it really isn't important if the BUG's move
Away!!!! Obviously there is sufficient funding at state and federal
level to support them without BUG fees ensuring employment.

As the president of the Mountain Devils Bushwalking club I was
entitled to represent the club on Confederation of Bushwalking Clubs
NSW Inc committees. All club business was carried out by committees
comprised of presidents or representatives of the clubs. It was
democratically run with all members and all clubs receiving full

The secretary / office manager was a full time employee, the rest were
all volunteers as described previously. Income was derived from fees,
web site advertising and advertisements placed in the magazine.

The focus was on bushwalking, its promotion and the clubs, it wasn't a
career path into politics as Bicycle NSW appears to be.

Bicycle NSW is a full time professionally run organisation but its
services are not superior or professional compared to the
bushwalkers. Bicycle NSW also appears to achieve little at state

Pat Farmer, Federal MP Campbelltown recently brought up the issue of
cyclists paying a tax. The local newspaper interviewed me then I
requested assistance from Bicycle NSW and CPF asking for a press
release to counteract Pat Farmers suggestion before it hit the
national newspapers. The CPF responded immediately and I had a press
release the same did plus the CPF sent it immediately to the local
newspapers. Bicycle NSW didn't even respond to my email.


Leigh Gibbens email to you all is attached to this email so I will not
rewrite it. But the issues are very clear.

The way I see it is:
   1. to join another organisation which I have already done by joining
      Pedal Power for insurance purposes as a temporary measure.
   2. Start a new organisation with sufficient members to approach the
      insurance companies for funding and challenge the Bicycle NSW
      monopoly on state / federal government funding.
   3. Hope that Bicycle NSW will change its attitude.
My allegiance is to MacBUG and its members. In future I will be
advising the following on behalf of MacBUG members and newcomers

Stop promotion of Bicycle NSW in any media.  Publish this letter on
the news page and home page of the MacBUG website.

Ken Hall

    ----- Original Message -----
    *From:* Leigh Gibbens at Home <mailto:lgibbens at bigpond.net.au>
    *To:* ashbug at telstra.com <mailto:ashbug at telstra.com> ;
    MBooth at chcs.com.au <mailto:MBooth at chcs.com.au> ; sally at bargo.info
    <mailto:sally at bargo.info> ; contact at baybug.org.au
    <mailto:contact at baybug.org.au> ; mwortho at bigpond.net.au
    <mailto:mwortho at bigpond.net.au> ; info at bikenorth.org.au
    <mailto:info at bikenorth.org.au> ; cctcc at optusnet.com.au
    <mailto:cctcc at optusnet.com.au> ; bgrinberg at telstra.com
    <mailto:bgrinberg at telstra.com> ; b.day at UNSWalumni.com
    <mailto:b.day at UNSWalumni.com> ; contact at bikesouthwest.org.au
    <mailto:contact at bikesouthwest.org.au> ; cityride at bikesydney.org
    <mailto:cityride at bikesydney.org> ; markr at australwright.com.au
    <mailto:markr at australwright.com.au> ; info at burstbug.org.au
    <mailto:info at burstbug.org.au> ; president at bww.org.au
    <mailto:president at bww.org.au> ; maxsfitzroy at bigpond.com
    <mailto:maxsfitzroy at bigpond.com> ; info at camwest.pps.com.au
    <mailto:info at camwest.pps.com.au> ; debbiebarrett at bigpond.com
    <mailto:debbiebarrett at bigpond.com> ; katandra at bigpond.com
    <mailto:katandra at bigpond.com> ;  <mailto:yargnhoj at aapt.net.au> ; John-J-OBrien at bigpond.com
    <mailto:John-J-OBrien at bigpond.com> ; george1h at bigpond.com
    <mailto:george1h at bigpond.com> ; guybrantingham at southernphone.com.au
    <mailto:guybrantingham at southernphone.com.au> ;
    president at sydneyspokes.com <mailto:president at sydneyspokes.com> ;
    elanora at winsoft.net.au <mailto:elanora at winsoft.net.au> ;
    CBushell at csu.edu.au <mailto:CBushell at csu.edu.au> ;
    jmoxham at pacbrands.com.au <mailto:jmoxham at pacbrands.com.au> ;
    lmpatterson at gundagai.nsw.gov.au
    <mailto:lmpatterson at gundagai.nsw.gov.au> ; timothy at australia.edu
    <mailto:timothy at australia.edu> ; dbathers at bigpond.net.au
    <mailto:dbathers at bigpond.net.au> ; wernersteyer at yahoo.com.au
    <mailto:wernersteyer at yahoo.com.au> ; fractalbug at yahoo.com.au
    <mailto:fractalbug at yahoo.com.au> ; david.and.barb at iinet.net.au
    <mailto:david.and.barb at iinet.net.au> ; mastacy at aims1.every1.net
    <mailto:mastacy at aims1.every1.net> ; Ken Hall
    <mailto:kenhall at iprimus.com.au> ; John Thixton
    <mailto:jthixton at hotmail.com> ; massbug at massbug.org.au
    <mailto:massbug at massbug.org.au> ; cpursche at scu.edu.au
    <mailto:cpursche at scu.edu.au> ; Philip Johnston
    <mailto:scribepj at tpg.com.au> ; haworth at tsn.cc
    <mailto:haworth at tsn.cc> ; alland1 at bigpond.com
    <mailto:alland1 at bigpond.com> ; wadmitch at adventureteam.zzn.com
    <mailto:wadmitch at adventureteam.zzn.com> ; pjaje at bigpond.com
    <mailto:pjaje at bigpond.com> ; graham.andrews at bigpond.com
    <mailto:graham.andrews at bigpond.com> ; cycleways at hunterlink.net.au
    <mailto:cycleways at hunterlink.net.au> ; nebug at optusnet.com.au
    <mailto:nebug at optusnet.com.au> ; gregw at nor.com.au
    <mailto:gregw at nor.com.au> ; NSBG
    <mailto:north_shore_bike at yahoo.com.au> ; ggodde at vtown.com.au
    <mailto:ggodde at vtown.com.au> ; laja.florence at bigpond.com
    <mailto:laja.florence at bigpond.com> ; begabug_7 at hotmail.com
    <mailto:begabug_7 at hotmail.com> ; info at stgeorgebug.org.au
    <mailto:info at stgeorgebug.org.au> ; sharkbike at sharkbike.org.au
    <mailto:sharkbike at sharkbike.org.au> ; gjsearle at bigpond.com
    <mailto:gjsearle at bigpond.com> ; enquiry at toukleycycleclub.org.au
    <mailto:enquiry at toukleycycleclub.org.au> ;
    info at windsorcyclists.org.au <mailto:info at windsorcyclists.org.au> ;
    johnsuth at acenet.com.au <mailto:johnsuth at acenet.com.au> ;
    info at westernsydneycyclingnetwork.com.au
    <mailto:info at westernsydneycyclingnetwork.com.au> ; judd at tpg.com.au
    <mailto:judd at tpg.com.au>
    *Sent:* Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:15 PM
    *Subject:* BNSW - further information

    To all NSW BUG leaders and other interested parties,

    I sent you all a group email on 28th June in order to gain some
    feedback about issues you may like to have solved by BNSW.  My
    purpose, as stated was to collect that information and present it to
    BNSW after the closing date of 31st July.

    In the meantime, Alex Unwin (CEO, BNSW) received a copy of the email
    and invited me to a meeting with Jenny Burn (Chairperson of the
    Board of BNSW) last Monday night (7th July).  The purpose of this
    meeting, I believe, was for Jenny and Alex to enlighten me regarding
    BNSW's broad strategy and policy position and for me to explain to
    them some of the issues that prompted my taking on this project.

    I will summarise in this email the outcome of that meeting.  Within
    the next few days I will publish, on the Macarthur BUG web site,
    more detail about what took place at the meeting and publish on the
    same web page where your feedback is being published
    (http://home.iprimus.com.au/kenhall/towncryer.html ) :

        * BNSW will not put any resources (by which I mean funds or paid
          staff) into supporting BUGs - Andrew Dodds, who runs the BUGs
          Council does so as a volunteer and if I wish to support
          Andrew, I would be welcome, but also as a volunteer.
        * Any improvements that BUG members would like to see must be
          implemented by the BUGs themselves through Andrew Dodds or
          amongst the volunteer BUG members themselves.
        * BNSW wishes to restrict its dealings to implementing the
          2007-2010 Strategic Plan, as presented at the 2007 AGM.
        * BNSW sees itself as operating at the Federal and State levels
          and will not put any resources into local or regional projects.
        * The only events that BNSW are interested in allocating
          resources to are the Spring Cycle, Gear-up Girl and as
          co-hosts of the Ride to work and Ride to School programs with
          Bike Victoria.
        * The stated policy of BNSW is to get "more people cycling more
          often", which does not mean they will place resources into
          building the membership numbers of BNSW as people can ride
          bikes without being members.
        * BNSW employ a "Volunteer and Operations Coordinator"
          (currently Michelle Herbert), who is the contact person for
          all Volunteers who wish to communicate with BNSW.
        * BNSW have no intention of running a NSW Big Ride in the
          future, but both Alex and Jenny said if I was interested in
          doing so, then that would be great.  However, BNSW will not
          provide any resources (as above - funds or paid staff).  All
          Big Ride equipment has been sold.

    Please feel free to email me if you have any specific questions
    about the above summary, but bear in mind I will publish details
    within a week.


    Leigh Gibbens
    17 Kethel Road,
    Cheltenham  NSW  2119
    Phone +61 2 9484 4093
    Fax     +61 2 9484 0353
    Mobile +61 2 433 570 920 (no mobile reception when at home ? sms only)

---- End forwarded message -----

Nick Urbanik   RHCE         http://nicku.org        nicku at nicku.org
GPG: 7FFA CDC7 5A77 0558 DC7A 790A 16DF EC5B BB9D 2C24 ID: BB9D2C24

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